Tuesday
Dec022008
Terms of Service Watchdog Organization?
Does this exist? Should this exist?
I just saved you five minutes by typing those questions out.
That's why I suck at the internet.
But indulge me, would you?
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Response: bill of rightSo you’ re thinking,“ I don’ t want to be a pompous, elitist British intellectual.” But know this; we can’ t be a super power if we’ re the dumb kids on the international playground. We can’ t be a super power with just pearly white teeth, fit bodies and cool ...
Reader Comments (67)
Hey Kev, I completely agree with you one hundred percent. I honestly do not
read the TOS on sites that I sign up for, just because I don't understand a lick of it let alone read it for my own protection. What I would like to know is how can we really do anything about it, where it would be permanent and effective in the long-run and not just swept under the rug.
I know I certainly want to do something about this what some would call a "non-issue", but I have no clue where to start.
Yours Truly,
A Very Concerned Citizen/Fan
I don’t know if you are able to contact a lobbyist group, Better Business Bureau or some other consumer advocacy group that can be directed on this to stabilize online user rights, but I do like where you are going with the online user bill of rights. This might need a type of Grass Roots movement to get the legal ease established.
I definitely feel that a bill of rights, or some kind of guide lines be administered on all terms of service, especially when it comes to content and ownership of content. For instance, Kevin Smith (writer/director) published a book based upon his blog called My Boring Ass Life. Now if Mr Smith were posting this blog on myspace, facebook, or any kind of counterpart, he would be in direct violation of the terms of service, and these companies could sue him for his own thoughts, experiences and opinions. To me thats bullshit. We the user are doing these business's a service by posting and using there site, creating an audience for them and generating profit. At some point the line has to be drawn and greed has to stop.
Yay you made another seesmic vid.
I know that I never read the terms of service for pretty much anything on the web. After reading some comments its clear that hardly anyone else does(except for an occasional glance over it). But we are still expected to follow their terms even though no one takes the time to read it(which is fine b/c it's their site and they have their own rules). But I do think they should have a short summary of the policies b/c they can't think that your average user is going to read through all those pages of legal jargon.
I guess it's just weird to see that our society has gotten to this point where we may have to start asking these questions.
I think some organization to monitor TOSs would be a good thing... maybe. I know I would like to know what TOS I'm agreeing to by coming here!
Win for shortest post here!
I think Moe V def had a really good point, everyone has little gadgets on their web browsers. I have one that protects me from phishing and pop-up. Imagine if you could just have an application that would sort of 'decode' a terms of service and give you some sort of rating, (bronze, silver, gold, or blue A, red X, etc. etc.) and you could get more details.
In this day and age everyone needs more jobs so maybe there is actually some sort of future for this idea? Imagine a program that would break down what you are and aren't getting from a TOS and rate it for you within a matter of seconds.
Also, like Kevin said, maybe we should have a cyber 'bill of rights' that is standard for websites to follow. We are given our rights, and told what to expect and not expect, and if there are any variations it should be stated. It could be as simple as "such and such website follows the code of blah blah blah with the exception of..."
Wouldn't that be 100x easier to understand?
I like your idea of a company that breaks everything down into simple terms and then gives a rating but then you have to wonder about the (Not trying to be funny) "Terms of Service" for the "Terms of Service, Service". Because all it would take is one D-bag to get into trouble and then sue the rating company saying that their break down was not simple enough for him/her to understand. I think something like that is tough to do in a society that does not take responsibility for its own actions....Better to just not read it, scroll to the bottom and hit accept and pray to the internet gods that you don't break any "rules".
Hey Kevin,
you have a great idea here.. i really believe we need to watch out for ourselves as the end user to make sure we are not taken avantage of. I design and build websites on the side and would be willing to work on a site for said idea. let me know if you want to be apart of this, since it was your idea.
i gotta agree with kev on this one
on an off topic note
wtf was with that dude on the loop today? he made the whole interview like a commercial for Netflix
Kevin, i full heartedly agree with you, nobody read terms of service, and this new law is bull, i think us dedicated web users should get a petition or something going to try and get a rating system and a Layman's version of the ToS put into place.
I admit in light of the recent events I have also begun to think about this. I do not know of a single person, including myself, that reads through the ToS, but I do wonder from time to time what I am signing away when I click that accept button. Your idea makes sense, but it is finding the people with the time or wish to do it. I will comb the tubes for anything resembling what you are talking about and talk to a friend of mine in law school to see what he has to say. You will be first to know if I see anything you will be the second to know, after me.
Well maybe you have just evoked the wrath of far greater nerds than you or I and they will make a website featuring the things you mentioned.
Term of service is comparable to the laws of any government. Don't want to sound paranoid or anything but I know they do send it out or they keep a watch on everyone. Also some of those websites have the option of choosing to send your personal info out to third parties or first party as commercial use or as simple data. As far as that woman is concerned. She took her harassment so so far that she practically committed murder, which was the main reason they use the terms of service to get that lady in the first place. She is a grown woman who probably showed no remorse to the bully. She should of handled that better. As far as I am concerned, I would not be worried about that right now. As long as people don't do anything to hurt or harass or threaten another person, everyone should be alright.
The TOS only exists to protect a company or service provider from lawsuits from consumers. They do not exist to punish people who violate them. Myspace only invoked the TOS violation so that they could not be sued by the girl's mother. Myspace (and all other companies) have to keep their hands clean. They DON'T to pursue violators because that costs them money to do so, and also causes them to lose customers.
It is strictly a protective measure for a company's assets and nothing more. Certainly nothing to worry about as a consumer.
Well said Dr. Pereira. Yea, that's right, I said doctor because I am now dubbing you Doctor of the interwebz, good sir. And I completely agree. Large companies, corporations, and institutions etc. have been using volumes of fuzzy legal jargon to overwelm people for far too long. They want people to follow laws that require a decent high school education and alot of free time or a team of lawyers to understand, which to be honest most people do not have.
I mean what there saying is relativley simple, why do they have to go to such long and ridiculous lengths? I've come to the conclsion that lawyers, especially those that comprise the legal departments of major companies, are bad writers with an inability to be straightforward about anything.
That sort of hazy manipulative bullshitting is one of the main reasons this coutry is in the state it is. And every time some crazy bitch does something crazy they have to draft a bill or pass a law to remove or restrict more freedoms.
And I don't know if I am being paranoid but it seems like they are piggybacking an agenda on to this dumb bitch's lunacy and using this "outrageous" story to take more control away from interent users.
I agree whole heartedly with your simplified TOS or EULA idea, but instead of having a watch dog organization which needs money and people reading over hundreds of thousands of TOS's and re-reading them when they are updated, make one universal TOS or EULA. Would be a lot easier then policing all the different web sites and having to keep up with updating. Next to no startup, no large work force to maintain who is and who isn't keeping their TOS fair to both parties. I don't know, seems like that might just be more practical.
P.S. Where is the TOS for this site? Is this still going to be my idea tomorrow?
First, I'd like to comment on the Myspace lawsuit: As twisted as that woman may be, I don't think she should be held accountable for anything other than simple harassment. It's tragic that the young girl is dead, but let's not forget that committing suicide is not the logical next step after being harassed. This girl had issues. As sad as it may be, this thing has been blown out of proportion. The fact that they are convicting her for violating the TOS is just them grasping for any punishment to get revenge. Now they've opened up Pandora's Box.
As far as the TOS goes: Companies have been using legal verbiage to screw over their customers and cover their ass ever since lawyers started crawling forth from Hell. We live within a government that heavily favors companies over people (i know it says "by the people, and for the people", but that's a dream, right?) so it has been easy for them to get away this. I bet there is someone victimized every minute in this country by misunderstood TOS, simply because like you said, it's not in plain english.
Bottom line, although I like your idea, I would rather see a system where TOS agreements aren't so convoluted, so that the common human being can read and understand it. It just seems unethical to me to produce a document addressed to a particular group and purposely word it in such a way that said group can not understand it, or make it so unnecessarily long that they simply won't take the time.
Anyway, sorry if I rambled for too long. Great Topic!
blah. I was about to record a video and I thought about how ironic it was that I hadn't read the terms of service. So, right before I read what it had to say, of course, number one, you must be 18 years or older. HA okay so I decided to abide by their rules and just write this.
Terms of Service, when faced with what seems like fifty pages of "legalise" as one user put it, it's very easy to click the "yea i read it" button and continue on. basically the "I read the terms of service button" translates into "Yes, I won't be a dumb ass and I really don't like reading long complicated things". I always thought it would be better for a terms of service in Layman's terms, or have the simple rules outlined and if you need any further instructions you can click on it to open up a longer paragraph (they have this on facebook for frequently asked questions and others). It seems it's written for a court case, so when someone sues said website or company they basically have all the terms down so they can defend themselves.
Now, as far as a "Terms of Service Service" goes, that would be great. As long as you can find someone to do it. I don't know how well that job would be payed or WHO would pay them, wouldn't hurt in this economy, more jobs is fine with me. But I'm sure a big red X on a website would at least warn me and maybe inspire me to looking to that huge abyss of text. The point is, people such as myself and I'm sure others are not going to take the time to read it no matter how long or short it is unless they are forced to. I've never read one. Except for Seesmic. and that was today. AKA reading the TOS is not my top priority when using a site.
Nothing can come of it, I think nothing will come of it. this Myspace fiasco doesn't change how i sign up for a web site nor should it. what 's the law going to do to violators of those web sites or visa versa...NOTHING some well go to talk to judge judy but all well be thrown out causing yet again stagnant waters amongst webbers.
I, for one, never read the terms of service
The pages upon pages of legal jargon seems like a ridiculous and terribly tedious way to spend my time when I could be getting to the reason I got onto the site in the first place.
I do agree that some sort of organization should be established,
but then again I really don't think there is one person that would do that, mostly due to lack of interest in the subject.
Not reading the terms of service hasn't sent me to jail yet, and I really don't think it'll be that much of an issue in the future either.
Part of the reason I tend to stay away from social networking is that lack of privacy. Who wants to give the whole world their personal information? Before Google, getting private numbers and address was a work of art, now any idiot can do a Google search and get an address, map and picture of your house. Zaba search is no better. For these reasons and more, I'll continue to violate Terms of Service in this manner for as long as I am online.
I don't think there's anything to worry about. I mean, the only reason why this issue was brought up because something drastic (in this case, death) was involved. So unless you plan on violating the rules on some site by doing something that would bring as much attention to you as that mother did with her cyber-bullying, I don't think it would be an issue to anyone.
she was an enabler to suicide and if she never did anything the girl would still be alive = murderer.period.
I have a few comments on this.
This is more than just a non issue that will disappear, the precedent it sets in the courts is very dangerous and opens a door that can be aptly described as a yawning maw into hell. You thought the RIAA lawsuits were bad and frivolous.
On the other hand, who does this truly effect. I know I'm not a TOS reader myself, but I have no intellectual property that I'm putting up on the web, and coming from a design background I know what it takes to protect your IP. I don't plan on purporting any acts of law breaking using content posted or found online, stealing peoples passwords or harassing people online. I don't lie about my age online, I actually scroll all the way down to 1978 when a game trailer asks me if I'm old enough.
Will we see Google prosecuting 10 year old kids nation wide because they searched for boobies? Its not likely. Or maybe they want to be regarded as the Devil, or I'm sorry, was that spot already taken by the dead grandma suing RIAA?
And in closing, I'm glad they found some way to get the Abuser in this situation. I can't believe there isn't some sort of law that covers emotional abuse resulting in bodily harm (whether self inflicted or not) up to and including death. Something akin to negligent homicide. Its a tragedy that unfortunately is going to have far reaching effects.
Down to 2 minutes? Bah! MoAr Kevin the better.