Tuesday
Dec022008
Terms of Service Watchdog Organization?
Does this exist? Should this exist?
I just saved you five minutes by typing those questions out.
That's why I suck at the internet.
But indulge me, would you?
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Response: bill of rightSo you’ re thinking,“ I don’ t want to be a pompous, elitist British intellectual.” But know this; we can’ t be a super power if we’ re the dumb kids on the international playground. We can’ t be a super power with just pearly white teeth, fit bodies and cool ...
Reader Comments (67)
I don't know, Kevin. It kind of seems like something like that would be a bureaucratic mess for something that at best will be a non-issue a month from now.
I can't really see this one case leading to an RIAA-type big business lynching of average citizens.
This is just a slippery slope. I haven't read up a lot on it, but it seems to me that they were looking for any way possible to bust that lady for cyber-bullying. And in pursuing this course, they are paving the way for a lot of grey area and ambiguity. I see trouble ahead...
Then again, it could end up being like Amsterdam's pot laws- loosely enforced, if at all. I guess I have some reading to do to catch up on all this.
I am with you Kevin i dont read the terms of service on anything and i have lied about some info on thing as have most other people. But right now i dont think this is such a big problem that we all have to worry about but i would like to see something done to make the user more aware of what is expected of us and what is expected of the site becuase lets face it even if we do read the terms of service (Whitch we wont) no one is going to under stand all of it. There really dose need to be a clear way of getting this information across in a short and easy way.
Kevin,
I donread any of that crap they put in terms, nor would I understand most of the legal jargon in it. I think it is fine until you start breaking the law or pushing it to the limits.
Quinn
Im with you Kevin.None of us actually read the terms of service let alone understand them.Your idea seems solid enough but sadly money is needed to get that idea rolling.I dont think this will affect us now.In the near future though......Their is a storm coming.
Even if they don't make a group that evaluates the Terms of Service on a website, they should at least have them revise the Terms for us to understand. It's the general public, the Internet, you need to make the Terms speak to the public because they all do not carry dictionaries with them all the time (even if they are at home where one is readily available.)
I hope that made sense. Thanks for reading.
I agree with you one hundred percent. I would love for there to be a simple sort of 'wrap up' of the TOS or a laymen version. Half of them are too long, complicated and tend to be redundant. I know that I don't want things I say or post on the Internet being sold to third parties without my consent and if sites are planning on doing this, I would like it stated in plain English. I don't want to wade through 20, 30, 50 or more pages of legalese just to find the important parts.
As an artist, I don't want to sign up to some art community only to find out that they can take all the copyright information to my work, or use it for commercial purposes as stated in their TOS that was buried in some inside page somewhere on the site that I would never find.
I know a lot of people don't read the TOS mainly because they either don't understand it, or are impatient or some combination of the two.
But as I said at the beginning of my ramblings here, I agree with you, Kevin. And I find it completely unfair to the family of the girl who committed suicide that they can only charge the woman on TOS violation.
I dont see and feesable way to do this. Every single website in the whole internets would need something like that, so every single website would need a rater of some sort to give them a big blue 'A' as you put it or a big 'X'. if this lawsuit explodes into several web wide lawsuits by disgruntled users, i dont think there can be any happy ending for users and just more censorism by the gov't on the web and that would really suck.
that mom who used myspace to phycologically torture that girl should be stoned to death.
Frankly the whole ordeal is an up hill battle no matter which way you look at it. If we were to instate a group like the ESRB or NPAA, we face the problem of entrusting people who possible have no idea as to what they need to do and who probably wont make sound decisions. This also brings up the ethical problem that, if a group is instated who's to say that they cant be bought out by a big corporation to sway their decisions to rate the corporations site as an A site. But I also see the problem that we are facing now, with the whole violating of the terms of service. Like everyone has been stating, no one is going to read the entire terms of service because it is so convoluted with all these legal terms that, if your not a law major, your just going to skip by and just agree. This also hits on the fact that we are putting our selves in the hands of the site. I don't think any site is going to be safe for a while. Its almost like there are no more independent free site. If we are going to be held accountable for violating a terms of service, I feel it is only right for us, if tried, to plead insanity. Just because I falsified my age so that i could have a Myspace account or a Facebook account so that i can find the outlet that i may need to touch some one and share my emotions with so that the world wont crush me, is not something that we should be wasting all this time on. Our country is facing harsh times right now. Our economy is falling at an alarming rate and we only seem to care about the problem of some kids who say their 17 when their really 12. OMG. Sorry for the ramble. To sum up, it would be nice for the sites and all the products that come with a terms of service agreement to put that document in simple word so that there are no foul ups. If we have to instate a group to do that than so be it. But I just hope we can find some people who will make the right decisions, because we will be relying on them heavily.
I have nothing to add; you nailed it. However, there's one small thing I would like to add to this discussion that (I felt) didn't deserve a video response. In fact, a video response would make me part of this particular problem, so...
seesmic could really use a 'block user' feature for conversations. That's all I'll say about that.
Great topic Kevin. Concerning the "Myspace" incident, I was absolutely shocked by the verdict. It did open up a "can of worms" as they say when the best they could do is convict her of violating the "terms of use" agreement. If only because now, technically if they so choose, we can be convicted of violating the TOS agreements. Like you mentioned this can be anything that we do not read or take the time to read in the TOS agreement to almost any web site we use implied or other wise. I agree with you that this does indeed present a need for "watchdog" type group that would look out for our best interest. Our personal information such as browsing history are indeed very valuable to advertising companies for use in target advert, but if a company was able to warn us about it I would avoid these types of web sites. I already use the WOT program for my Firefox browser to keep away from dangerous or malicious web sites, if there was one that would warn me of certain web sites with shady TOS then I would go somewhere else. This is the type of service that would force online companies to become more transparent in their info collection and therefore minimize these types of intrusions into our privacy. I think you are onto something my friend! Maybe the good people @ Mozilla could get a free program up and running. I certainly would download and use it.
End-User Agreements are a hazy issue, the vast majority of people do not read them, myself included. They are very long, many times confusing. I believe many companies do this intentionally for a few reasons, one they know you aren't going to read it, but their bases are covered from a liability standpoint. Secondly so they have the right to terminate your account at any time. I'm sure that if we really went back and read the TOS agreement we would find ourselves violating many policies. Anyway Kevin even if they were to formulate an ESRB-like entity on TOS I highly doubt most people would pay attention. Perhaps for those of us that may care about what's at stake with TOS there should be a searchable database of information on TOS and what to be careful of when you sign up for a particular site or service. Anyway, that's just my two cents, take it for what it's worth.
There would have to be causable action to get sued.
If you violate the terms of service on a site, for example you say your 45 instead of 55, What harm did you do? What are the damages?
Here is an extreme example, say artist X releases an album with WB Records and they sell ZERO copies, and you illegally distribute that album. Although what you did is illegal, WB Records has no damages because that album has no value in the free market. if they tried to sue you it would get thrown out of court.
So violating TOS, is only a sticky issue when there is a party involved with actual damages.
make sense?
cheers,
Michael
i agree with you kevin there should be a summed up version becuse even is you do read try to read the TOS you really cant undrstand becuse half of it is in lawyer talk. (conpersioy theroy mabey they make it that hard becuse they want us to skip it and stay igornt) but there should be a users bill of rights
I think that this will go one of two ways. MySpace alone has been around for years now and this is the first ruling over a violation of terms of service. So now that it has happened it is either going to be an isolated incident and we may never hear of anything like this again. OR there will be a whole new frilvilous lawsuit magnet between people suing over simple things like lying about your age. I don't think that there is going to be a huge change in the way things are done over this, it was a very tragic incident that was taken to far by a childish adult.
On the other hand I think an organization that will paraphrase TOS into a few neat bullet points so you don't have to read through hundreds of pages and figure out what it all means would be great, since the courts have and will continue to enforce TOS we need to know what they say now.
Woah woah woah. Chrome's history can be used against you?
*deletes history*
4chan led me there! It wasn't my fault!
On a more related note, to be honest, I wouldn't care about any site that reviews TOS's. I would wait for someone, like you said, to point out the flaws.
I know that I probably should, but really, with all the shit I download I don't want to need to look up a TOS review page to check to make sure my info isn't gonna be stolen. I see where you're coming from, and I would like to know that my TOS's are being reviewed by some official so that tings like that Myspace fiasco can be avoided. As for personally looking them up, that's a big no.
I myself do not read any of the TOS, mainly because I don't want to waste my time reading the legalise. I do not think that this will become a real issue until more instances arise that require a "legal" resolution. But I do think that this first case is a step towards new laws that will hold people accountable for their actions on the internet.
I think for the time being, a site's TOS will be mainly ignored until more people feel that they have been wronged, and take action against it. While a simple to understand TOS would be appreciated, and much less wordy, they seem to be written so that people won't read them. And even if "they" did read read them, it is so convoluted, that many people will not understand it.
I think that some sites, like google, throw in terms like "must be 18" just to cover themselves when it comes to adult content. They don't have to verify one's age, just say that "it is in the rules and that person violated them".
As for the End User Bill of Rights, if there isn't anything like that already, it is because there has not been enough interest, it has been a non issue until now, and the internet is so vast that it would take an amazing amount of time for a third party to read through and simplify existing TOS.
Sites use TOS to protect themselves, not the users, and while I would like a reliable third party seal of approval that would simplify a site's TOS, I do not see it happening until a site/company is required by law to have a simplified TOS that they are held accountable for. The simple TOS could be linked to the more detailed one, but until the sites themselves required to simplify their rules and are held accountable for for them, I do not see this changing anytime soon.
Final thought, many people avoid reading the TOS because it is so long and complicated. Creating a law that requires a company to have a simple and understandable Term of Service, that they are legally held accountable for, would give people the option to understand it, but until more "internet wrong doings" are prosecuted, many people will just skip past them.
And yes, I probably could have made this longer.
I agree with you that the legalese that is used in the TOS should be phrased so more people can understand it but that is also the way that our laws are phrased, so the average citizen cannot understand them. The problem is with the whole system from the top down which sees itself as an exclusive club using Latin terms and outdated jargon from the 17th and 18th century.
I NEVER read the Terms o' Service. I don't read them simply because they're so long and complicated that it would do me any good. It might be helpful to read if in a rare case a site says that it has authority to violate me in some way, but that usually is not the case. An organization to monitor that kind of stuff would be interesting, considering everything else has some type of agency to do just that.
Summary: I'm pro authority.
With the terms of service I think that as having been a computer gamer for the majority of my life, TOS and EULA's are just a bunch of garbage you just click through during the install. I hardly ever read manuals unless I'm taking a dump during said install. I would be interested to see what these EULA's and TOS's say for just games, single player and their multiplayer content. I guess because the general consensus that these pages and pages of text (TOS and EULA for PC games) are pointless and I have never actually sat down to read any, I have become apathetic to the general idea of a EULA or TOS.
Would I go to a third party website to see a more clearcut definition of my rights to my content on certain sights, definitely. The end-user needs a couple of tweet sized descriptions of what goes and what doesn't. I had heard through the news and what not of say posting pictures on Facebook makes it their property and they can sell them or not allow you to access them. Companies should be able to have whatever TOS or EULA they want but I do think they should be required to "dumb it down" for a lack of better words. Why should an independent company have to spend time and effort for something the original company should be doing in the first place? I, however, have trust issues with big corporations so even if they did dumb down these agreements, I still think an independent, consumer (or private user) backed company should be checking over all the fine print.
This would reduce many headaches and would allow the user a more comprehensive overlook of the actual service, its pro's and con's, and therefore the end-user can make a more informed opinion. This almost seems similar to the voting tests that the South had employed to scare Blacks from voting. The EULA and TOS's are so esoteric and mind-numbingly long that they become a deterrent for the end-user to actually read their rights. Its a subtle game of being able to sneak in otherwise preposterous TOS. If people are apathetic or discouraged from reading their rights, they are easily taken away without anyone knowing.
I think an international committee or company should be employed for this issue not just for american sites but for sites across the world. Having an international body acting as a EULA/TOS watchdog will help prevent other cases like these springing up in countries that would be more apt to truly prosecute the myspace mom/fake boy.
I am interested to see how this goes but what are the repercussions for violating the myspace TOS? Just account termination I thought. It will be interested to see how the net neutrality thing works out here. Does the US have jurisdiction over web material? Or does myspace alone have the right to press charges against the mom? But those charges would only be account termination...what if websites listed in their EULA/TOS that you are held accountable for something like this? If you conduct that kind of behavior you can be charged with accomplice to suicide/murder?
Only time will tell how far the rabbit hole goes.
I go through and read every TOS </joke>
While I don't think it's a bad idea or anything, the problem is that I would never check it unless I got deleted or something and want to know why.
Perhaps if lawsuits become a big deal and it becomes important to know what the TOS are, then I might check it over before I accept, but right now there is just no need to. The worst case senerio for breaking TOS (at least right now) is that your account or whatever you're signing up for gets deleted, but with the magic of the internet, a lot of the time you can just create a new account and continue on with your business.
My point above stating that all laws should be put in understandable language is because whether people know it or not, not knowing that there is a law is not an excuse breaking a law in the eyes of a court. If one has no idea what a law is saying how can one know if one is breaking it or not?
I would like to meet the person who actually reads the TOS. Well actually I wouldn't because I could definitely not hang out with that guy. I like the idea of a rating system because it would give a lay person like me an actual understanding of what I'm getting myself into because honestly I've never considered it before. And when a death is involved in any situation God forbid common sense be used to determine punishment instead of bullshit legal jargon. The judicial system if so ridiculously flawed it's unbelievable.
Hope you get better buddy. Sinus problems are a bitch.